for their generous contribution of
the following:
An Online Chat With
Karla Turner
(During the chat Karla 's nickname is:
"ThunderK")
2/15/95 7:21:03 PM Opening "KT Class
2.15.95 #3 log" for recording.
ThunderK : Toney, please ga!
Toneyterry : Has anyone noticed a change in any abductees attitudes
toward their abductors?
ThunderK : Yes, I certainly have. What about the rest of you?ga
Dee777 : !
ThunderK : Yes, Dee?ga
Dee777 : In the group I belong to, I see lots of anger where there
used to be fear.
ISCNIMikeL : I think such a change, toward generally more positive,
is one of the most puzzling things happening in abduction research
today.
Toneyterry : !
ThunderK : Is there more, Michael, or is that a ga?
ISCNIMikeL : sorry, ga
ThunderK : Is it really puzzling? Or could it be what we might
expect, given the widespread influx of info on the subject, as well
as the opportunity for so many abductees to begin to investigate, or
at least to ponder more openly on their experiences? Irene, please
ga
ThunderK : Oops, I meant Toney, ga
Dee777 : !
Toneyterry : I totally agree! Some now think it is a wonderful
experience/as before it was a nightmare. ga
ThunderK : And Dee, please ga
Dee777 : Karla, you have a standing invitation from the leader of my
group to attend any one of our meetings and hear the pain and anger
in the voices of real abductees. GA
IreneR757 : !
ThunderK : Thanks, Dee! I do hear much of the emotional response from
many abductees and that's one of the main reasons I have pursued this
research. My husband and I felt very alone, sometimes frightened,
often angry when we had to deal with our experiences in a vacuum and
we vowed to do our best to help other people avoid such isolation and
confusion if we ever could find a way to do so. Thus, we're in this
work now. But as was pointed out earlier, many abductees tend to see
their emotional and intellectual responses change as their knowledge
grows and their experiences evolve (occasionally). Irene, you've got
a comment? ga
KnoSys : !
IreneR757 : My feeling is they are "real abductees" also, but have
perhaps fallen to a questionable agenda. ga
ThunderK : Let's back up a bit. What was the original meaning of
'real abductee' in your statement, Dee? ga
Dee777 : I belong to a UFO therapy group where every member is an
abductee. ga
ThunderK : OK, but can you be more specific: do you know people you'd
call 'unreal' abductees? ga
Dee777 : some just say they had a 'dream'. Others have conscious
abductions. Some have had to watch their children be abducted while
they were paralyzed. ga.
ThunderK : Yes, I see what you mean but it's true that many real
abductees cannot handle, as yet, facing the reality of their
experiences and prefer to use terms like 'dream' rather than
recognizing what is actually occurring, because if they recognized
the events as 'real' they would be forced to do something different!
KnoSys, do you have a comment? ga
KnoSys : I don't understand why some people's experiences are so
negative, and others' so positive if challenging. It's always
challenging. ga
ThunderK : Good question but the data I've compiled and compared with
other researchers' findings seem consistent on this that the majority
of abductees have, in the course of time, both positive-feeling and
negative-feeling experiences, often at the hands of the same
entities. So that it's really rather rare for one person's total
experiences to 'seem' all traumatic or all wonderful. I think we'd
better start with the formal class now and to do that, I first want
to know if there are questions or comments about last week's
material. Irene, what about you? ga
IreneR757 : I have had to come at this from a recovery mode in that I
look at the actions to define what is going on rather than my
feelings about what is going on, as i said in my homework the more I
look at this from a "daylight"
questioning as it were, the worsee it looks. ga
ThunderK : Toney, what about you? ga
Toneyterry : Just one comment before we begin class. Is it possible
that this wide variety of emotions is exactly what the aliens want to
solicit?
ThunderK : Oh, yes, I think that's a BIG possibility! And it's one of
the theories that have been advanced to explain some of the more
anomalous events reported by abductees. As I hope we'll find here,
many events do not have any clear-cut purpose, at least from our POV,
and often they seem to be strictly to elicit certain emotional
responses. Barb, a comment before we go to the lecture? ga
Barb Byrd : Karla, I'd still like to see you go into your findings on
the soul in the folders unless I've missed it somehow. ga
ThunderK : OK, but it will take me a little more time to formulate
all my thoughts on the data and I'll probably save the in-depth
discussion for a subsequent class. But I'd be glad to chat about this
more informally in our folder this week. If AOL lets me stay on line
long enough!...
IreneR757 : lol!
ThunderK : When we finished with last week's session, I had not
covered all the topics I planned, and when I added them to the
folder, I may have mixed up some topics from last class with topics I
wanted to present tonight. So please forgive any overlap as I go on
now. This class topic is Alien Lore and Metaphysics. I've defined
'lore' as information delivered by the aliens (of whatever variety)
to abductees but which cannot be externally verified. To begin, let's
look at the typical statements by aliens about their home or origin.
In the earliest days of reported contact, does anyone recall where
the aliens usually said they came from? Anyone?
Toneyterry : !
ThunderK : Yes, Toney, ga
Toneyterry : Venus?
ThunderK : Right, among others! What else?
TX90829 : Jupiter, ga
IreneR757 : !
ThunderK : OK, another hot spot from the '50s. Anyone else recall an
alien home planet? Irene, ga
IreneR757 : Native American lore says the moon. ga
ISCNIMikeL : !
ThunderK : Yes, and so did some of the earlier ETs. Yes,
Michael? ga
ISCNIMikeL : Zeta Reticuli
ThunderK : Nope, sorry! Anyone else? ga
Toneyterry : !
ThunderK : OK, Toney? ga
Toneyterry : Barney and betty hills aliens came from Zeta ga
ISCNIMikeL : !
ThunderK : Well, perhaps but the aliens never said that. Where, in
fact, did the Zeta connection begin? Anyone?
IreneR757 : !
ThunderK : Yes, Irene?
ISCNIMikeL : !
IreneR757 : From the woman who put together the star map from the
Hills discription.
ISCNIMikeL : Right.
ThunderK : Bingo! And after that (Marjorie Fish, for those who want
to look into this), then we began to get much later reports that
aliens were implying an origin from Zeta Reticuli. Yes,
Michael?ga
IreneR757 : ?
ISCNIMikeL : Nothing to add. It's been said.
ThunderK : OK, go ahead, Irene.
IreneR757 : roughly how many abductees are given locational info? I
never have been. ga
ThunderK : Neither have I, to be honest, and it is rather rare to get
reports of locations just as it is rather rare to get any info from
the abducting aliens. My point in starting with the early cases is to
show that the first contacts with entities almost exclusively
involved a home planet within our solar system, but later this
changed dramatically and we began to get reports of places that we
had no possibility of checking out. Any thoughts about this
change?
KnoSys : !
IreneR757 : !
ThunderK : Yes, Charley, ga
KnoSys : Were those '50s contacts genuine?
KnoSys : ga
ThunderK : I have no reason to doubt the stories of many of the early
contact cases. But of course I wasn't around to personally interview
them. However, from the subsequent research I would bet that these
people really did have experiences of some sort. But why do you think
the home planet info might change as it did?
KnoSys : !
TX90829 : !
ThunderK : Irene, ga
IreneR757 : Either the credibility of the witnesses is questionable,
or more likely and more sinister as we were able to verify the
location, we were given disinformation. ga
ThunderK : I have wondered about that, too, as we started to explore
our solar system. Yes, Charley, ga?
KnoSys : Venus was an obvious choice, but I very much doubt that
people like Adamski were for real.ga
ThunderK : There are still some very firm supporters of his accounts,
however and I would more likely question the aliens' statements than
the contactees, at least until there were reasons to think otherwise.
Wayne, ga
TX90829 : Perhaps as we expanded our knowledge of space they changed
their story.
ThunderK : Could well be! Toney, ga
Toneyterry : Has anyone ever heard of any abductees saying that the
aliens say they come from our future?ga
ThunderK : I'm not familiar with any reports of this statement from
aliens. What about others?
IreneR757 : nope
ThunderK : Michael, ga?
ISCNIMikeL : It seems to me odd that although popular literature was
full of "men from Mars" most of the early contactees did not mention
Mars as a planet of origin. I'd also add that Native Americans often
said they derived from beings who came from the Pleiades (yikes,
spelling)
ThunderK : Yes, there are some wonderful accounts of Native American
lore about the sky people. KnoSys, ga
KnoSys : Human psychology is a reason "to think otherwise" about
people's contact statements. People will be firm in the support of
anything that excites them. ga
ThunderK : I think I understand what you're referring to, but as an
abductee who has had almost everything questioned at one time or
another and know how frustrating it is not to be able to supply 'hard
evidence,' perhaps I'm more open to the accounts as being essentially
honest although that does not mean I accept the accounts as accurate,
which is quite a different matter. To continue with the topic, let's
look at the aliens' accounts of their agenda. The mainstream
perception of the purpose for the alien presence includes very few
possibilities the first is that they are here to harvest genetic
material to upgrade their degerate species, the second is that
they're here to salvage (at least
part of) the human species which is not going to survive
indefinitely. A third explanation is that they are performing
strictly scientific studies.A forth is that they are here on a
spiritual mission,... and finally we get reports that they are here
either to observe or to intervene in a coming time of global
catastrophe. What about any other explanations with which you are
familiar?
KnoSys : That's most of 'em.
TX90829 : !
ThunderK : Yes, Wayne, ga
EXphyle : !
TX90829 : How about the possibility of Earth being part of an
economic trade route? ga
IreneR757 : !
ThunderK : I think we should consider that possibility, but do we
have any reports in which the aliens made such a statement? Let me
know if any of you are familiar with such reports and for now,
EXphyle, please ga.
KnoSys : One offered to buy Calif. from me for $27.
EXphyle : we are on a verge of an psyich evolotion and we are
becoming aware and maybe calling them, ga
ThunderK : Again, a possible theory. But we are trying at first at
least to look at Alien lore, the things THEY say to us. Yes, Michael,
ga
ISCNIMikeL : There were quite a few reports, some years ago, that
UFOs seemed to be harvesting water. ga
ThunderK : Right! And we still don't have a clue about their reasons.
Yes, Irene? ga
IreneR757 : Is it even possible for us to come up with an agenda with
out going way outside current thinking? ga
ThunderK : I hope so. But that's not the purpose here. We want to
examine what they say which brings me to another bit of alien lore,
which is the material relating to religious ideas. For instance, it
is fairly common to get reports of events in which the aliens stress
teachings of the separation of body and soul. They typically use the
term 'container' to refer to the body and they emphasize the
supremacy of the soul over the body in these cases. Yet in a number
of situations where the abductees have been able to communicate with
the aliens we get contradictory statements from them about their
recognition of a god source some aliens have shown a recognizably
'Christian' slant to their statements, while in other cases, the
aliens do not recognize the concept of 'god' as we use it here. Yes,
Wayne ga
TX90829 : Which aliens talk about the soul, if known? ga
ThunderK : If you mean, which physical type, comments have been
reported coming from Grays and from more human-looking entities. Also
there are a handful of reports involving insectoids. Dee, ga
Dee777 : The aliens speak of reincarnation...in that they put souls
right back into another body when the body dies. ga
ThunderK : Reincarnation or recycling?...
KnoSys : The aliens put them in?
ThunderK : I have two cases in which women, as young children, were
shown a huge metallic sphere in space and were told that it was the
place where souls were basically recycled. In one case the girl said
she 'knew' that if she went into that sphere, she would not come out
alive. Yes, Michael, ga
ISCNIMikeL : I've heard reports that some aliens claim to have made
Jesus, or Jesus was an alien. Do you know of any abductee who has
actually heard that claim?ga
ThunderK : Heck, yes! And even more, there are plenty of cases in
which Jesus himself shows up for a cameo appearance but I think it's
strange that in all these cases, the Jesus figure never looks Jewish,
but rather appears as blond and blue-eyed. I have a good report on
these lines in TAKEN, BTW...Irene, ga
IreneR757 : I don't know if this is related by my two earliest
memories were of a "vision" of Christ/St.Michael...
ISCNIMikeL : Well, Jesus donesn't look very Jewish in most Christian
depictions, either! ga
ThunderK : Wait!...
IreneR757 : and of a grey at the foot of my bed. I also saw the
sphere you are talking about in a rebirthing...
ThunderK : I think I missed calling on Toney first, and then Charlie,
so let's back up to Toney, please. ga
Toneyterry : I have come accross the term"The One"in many alien
accounts (Fowler among others) I wonder is this GOD?
IreneR757 : several years ago in which I "remembered" my conception.
THis is very puzzling to me. ga
Toneyterry : ga
KnoSys : So, is this Jesus reality or apparition or subjective
perceptual distortion?
ThunderK : Could be, Toney, as in some cases the aliens use the
term'god' but in other cases they seem to simply refer to a vague
concept. Charley, you're next, please.
ThunderK : I would think that when we look at a number of parts of
alien lore, we should wonder if the aliens aren't taking ideas and
concepts from the minds of their subjects and then playing those back
for them, as it were. We saw this, possibly, in their switch from
home planets in our neighborhood to places too far away to be
observed. And until we get some specific reports from predominately
non-Christian cultures, we don't know if Jesus is a 'universal' type
for them, or if in India, say, they bring in Krishna. Go ahead,
Jim.
ISCNIAcad : Something that ties together a few of the themes you've
mentioned is the idea that Armageddon (our... own image, and a
religious image) is coming, and they are going to pick the Chosen
People. Have you hear these types of reports? ga
ThunderK : Not too often, but in one case (Pat in TAKEN) the aliens
told her they were angels, 'but not as you were taught' and they also
implied that they were cloning bodies to have ready for the
resurrection of course, in other reports, the cloning explanation has
been far different! I can't believe that we're already running out of
time, just when things are getting good, but it's about time to shut
down for tonight and hopefully continue in our folder. Charley, you
can have the next comment, and then Michael. ga
ISCNIMikeL : Karla, it's your choice, but you can continue at least
another 15 minutes. ga
ThunderK : I wish I could, but I need to keep to the schedule
tonight. Charley, ga
KnoSys : Dinner awaits.
ThunderK : We should pursue our own ideas about the alien comments
during the week, please! And I will check into the folder daily and
respond. I hope the rest of you will also take advantage of our
folder and toss in your ideas, too. Some of you are apparently
reluctant to dive in but please know that you will not be ridiculed
or face any derision for your comments! Let's make this a very
productive week in the folder, ok?
